Small Biz Buzz hosts Crystal Heuft and Scott Martineau are joined by Chris Ducker, a personal branding expert, serial entrepreneur, and successful podcast host, who helps people monetize their expertise and their personal brand through the work he does at his company, Youpreneur.
Ducker stands by the mantra of when you build the business of you, it's future-proof. It can't be copied, plain and simple. Because of your uniqueness and the way that you lean into that uniqueness is what ultimately makes you future-proof.
“Regardless of what crisis you might be going through or what problems you might be facing, or whatever competitor has stolen your product idea, they can have the exact same product with the exact same packaging, but ultimately, people buy from you because you are their favorite,” said Ducker. “That's what the personal brand business model is all about. It's about becoming somebody's favorite.”
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Before you gentlemen joined us, I was telling Dusey and Derek about my evening, which included putting together a coffee table that seems like it came from IKEA based on directions and how many pieces this thing was in. Also that I could have a hydraulic coffee table that I can now put my desk on. And let me tell you, there were pieces everywhere, there were instructions, there was wrong legs going on in the wrong time. It was quite the evening. This is what we call a party during this crazy time. Somehow me and my roommate are still friends, so I survived. That's [inaudible 00:00:49].
Congratulations Crystal. It's good to have you here with us still.
I know. And, I actually never have missed my dad more than putting together that table. I think it made me have a new appreciation for how much he helps me. Have you guys been learning any new traits here during all this crazy time or new skills you didn't know you had?
Well, we're deep in the throes of our chicken coop. Which, in the software world we would say, it is experiencing feature creep. It started out as a small idea. Now it's a larger idea. So we're learning a lot of new stuff. It was fun to hearing one of my daughters last night saying, "I've really learned a lot about wood."
What about you Chris?
I've been self-isolating for decades, so this is no different to me. I've literally been running, [inaudible 00:01:47] three different business. I've been running all of them from my home for literally, nine, nine and a half years now. So it's no real different day-to-day for us. I guess I have figured out I'm not a bad home-school teacher. My wife has been handling 80% of it, but I've been getting involved with creative writing and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
What are your kids' ages?
So we've got an 11-year-old and we've got an almost 3-year-old. So that's been fun.
Wow. Well, I have to say after seeing your wife at Social Media Marketing World, when I got to meet you there, I was so impressed with her. She was your right hand lady. I mean, she was handling everything. I just remember what care she was taking with all of the post-its we were putting on the wall. They kept falling off. They must've been the world's worst post-its. And she was picking up each one like it was the world's best idea and really putting it back up on the wall. I was like, "Man, she is really..." And everywhere I saw you that whole week, there she was. I mean, that's got to be nice to have [crosstalk 00:02:52].
I don't leave home without her. She's like a group [inaudible 00:02:55] trouble on a regular basis. No. She's very much the partner in the business, and everybody knows us as a twosome. We're partners and people know that. So they like to see her just as much. Probably if I'm going to be frank, even more than they like to see me in that sort of environment. It's good. She gets way more attention, [inaudible 00:03:20] way more. I'm the one up on stage. I'm the one doing the show. I'm the one coaching everybody. And everybody just wants to hang out with her.
I think that's a sign of a great relationship then, because you can't have a stage all the time. Right? I'm sure she reminds you of that.
Oh, she sure does. Absolutely.
Well, that's great.
I think it's impressive. I went into business with my brother in-law, Clate. Clate married my sister. Then my brother, Eric, and there's a lot of energy about how horrible that idea was. I feel like we've been extremely fortunate. I know that it doesn't always work out that way, but it's exciting to hear that it's working for you despite the slight competitiveness about attention. Other than that, it sounds like it's going great.
For the most part. She's okay, I'll keep her hanging around. She's okay. She's alright.
Well, awesome. Well, we've got Chris Ducker here today with us and we are very lucky to have you. Thank you so much for making time.
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, for sure. I was hoping you could introduce yourself because you'll do a much better job of it, but you are like a personal branding expert, a serial entrepreneur, a successful podcast host. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself?
Yeah. I mean, you pretty much wrapped it up there. I mean, I've been an entrepreneur for 15 years now. I've started and grown several businesses. Bought a couple, sold a couple. Got a couple of failures under my belt as well. We currently have what? Just almost 400 people around the world working for us in various capacities. What I'm really known for online particularly, is helping people monetize their expertise and their personal brand through the work that we do over at youpreneur.com. And so, everything from Youpreneur Academy, which is our monthly membership to the Incubator, which is a mastermind program to the Summit, which is our conference which takes place every year in London. We're all about ultimately helping people monetize their expertise and build that business-of-you model that I'm always harping on about.
Well, you could definitely see your passion for all of that. Seeing you speak at Social Media Marketing World, and the workshop was amazing. You took it a step further. You actually met with all of us after for a quick workshop for anyone who wanted to attend, and you stuck around for a long time. I just really appreciate when speakers want to help and workshop out with everyone. So thank you so much for your time today, and for all of the time you give to everyone, I'm sure on the regular. It's very helpful, and it was a great talk and a great workshop.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you are a coach, if you're coaching people through a process, a framework, whatever it is, that's what you should do whenever you get the opportunity to do it, whether it be at a conference environment from stage or after in the corridors or dinner or whatever. I genuinely want to serve. And I believe that if I serve enough to the right people, the setting will take care of itself. I don't really need to ask for the order. I don't really need to try and close anyone. I don't really need to launch or promote or push anything. You either sign up or you're done. You either buy or you're done. And that's genuinely the way that we have built all of our businesses. It certainly seems to be serving us well. So we don't want try and fix it [crosstalk 00:07:01].
In this case. I think that's what led to this, to you being on this podcast. I think Crystal was really impacted by that gift that you gave her and service. Here we are. So I wanted to dig in, I hear the theme as I look at your website of personal branding, and I'd love to hear, why is personal branding so important? It seems like it's sort of a theme that comes out in the things that you talk about. So let's start with that. Why is that so important? What do you mean by personal branding?
Well you know, everyone has a personal brand. Whether they identify with that or not is kind of neither here nor there at the very beginning of the conversation. We have a personal brand. It's our reputation. It's what we do. It's what we say, it's what people say about us when we're not around. Right? So if we're not at that conference, or if we are not at that dinner party or that coffee meeting or whatever it is, if we're not hanging out on the Zoom... When people bring us up, when they talk about us, that's our personal brand. And that's why it's so important, regardless of whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're an employee, whether you're a partner or you're side hustling. Whatever it is, be aware of the fact that people are talking about you.
So the question is, what do I want to be known for? How do I want people to talk about me? And that's why the personal brand element is very much part of our society, even more so than ever before. It's just becoming, I think, more of a hot topic. It has become more hot topic over the last five to 10 years or so. It's been out there for a long, long time.
The reason why it's so important now, however, is because I believe, and I stand by this, this mantra of when you build the business of you, it's future-proof. It can't be copied, plain and simple. Because your uniqueness and the way that you lean into that uniqueness that ultimately makes you future-proof. So regardless of what crisis you might be going through or what problems you might be facing, or whatever competitor has stolen your product idea, they can have the exact same product with the exact same packaging, but ultimately, people buy from you because you are their favorite. That's what the personal brand business model is all about. And it's very cool. It's about becoming somebody's favorite.
Would you say most business owners... Small business owners, that's the majority of our audience are small business owners who are, you know, they're not massive brands in their spending. Some are just thinking about starting a business. Some have more successful businesses with large teams. But in your experience, do you think most people are thinking about this concept of branding, the way you're talking about it sort of proactively and intentionally? Or is it more of sort of an accidental brand creation?
I don't think they're thinking about it. I think that a certain percentage of people are thinking about it, maybe because it's thrusted down their throats on the daily from Gary Vaynerchuk and other people. But I don't think a lot of small business owners go into their business journey thinking, "I'm going to build a personal brand." However, I do believe those that do lean into that and they do pick up on that and they do look at it as an opportunity rather than a pain on the back side, those are the people in my mind, that are going to be more successful over the long term. And everything we do, we've got to do with a long game in mind, anyway, it's not about the sprint. It's always about the marathon. Always. And so, no, I don't think people are thinking about it that much at all, but I do believe slowly, but surely, that particularly the way that society will have us believe things are the right way to, you know, in terms of building a business and serving your customers and things like that. I think ultimately it's going to become more and more and more mainstream. You look back over time.
One of my biggest mentors who I never met, I never spoke to, I never conversed in any way, shape or form, was Zig Ziglar. You know, I don't think there's a week that goes by to this day where I don't consume some sort of Zig Ziglar content. Right? One of the things that he's been most quotable on is his quote of, "You can have anything in life that you want as long as you help other people get what they want." And I think that's very, very clear for the personal brand entrepreneur. We know that inherently. We get that. Others don't, and that's where the work comes into play.
I actually feel like small business- Scott, to your point, they hardly think they have time to get everything done they want to get done in a day. But personal branding, they think, "I don't want to be the face of a company." But the fact is that I always feel is, whether you realize it or not, you are the face of the company, if it's your business. And I think of all the small businesses I've loved since a kid to now. I usually love it for more than just the product. It's because the people that are running it have a great personality. I feel like they understand me, they understand what they're doing.
So I think that's why this topic is so important for small businesses, because whether you want to be the personal brand or not, you are. And people see that in your interactions every day with your customers, with everything you do. Your checkout process, it's becoming more and more important in my opinion, to have a very strong personal brand. One of the things that you talked about at your workshop was also about the idea of, in all these businesses you've started, the one thing you've been able to bring to every single business has been yourself. You've been able to bring that personal brand to each new endeavor. Tell us why that's so important and why that kind of puts you at a headstart as you start new businesses.
People want to do business with other people, right? I call it P-to-P or that people-to-people, mentality of relationship building. Again for the marathon, not the sprint, but we do. I mean, we're comfortable doing business with brands, right? But ultimately, we really deep down want to do business with other people. We want to buy directly from the creator of that product, right? The person who made that product. Put that service together. We don't necessarily want to just buy the solution a lot of the time anyway. As a sales and marketing professional, my entire career, I appreciate the importance of delivering solutions to your customers, clearly. But, every deal I've ever closed, every business I've ever launched or bought or sold, it's been because of the relationships that I've had in play with the prospect or the partner or whatever the case may be.
When I started getting really serious about my personal brand, which was around about 2012, I started blogging and podcasting and doing a lot of video and whatnot. When I started getting really serious about it, I looked back at my career up to that point, and I realized, literally every big moment, every promotion, every pivot that I'd ever made was based entirely around the decisions that I made or the decisions I helped other people get to based on my personality. And that's why you've got to be uniquely and unapologetically you all the time. That's the key, because at the very same time as attracting the right people into your world, into your ecosystem, into your product line.
At the exact same time of that happening, if you're doing exactly that by being you and being uniquely you, the way only you can do it, you're then going to be obviously repelling the other people away. The people who are at day 29 and the 30-day money back guarantee. I'm going to ask for their money back. We don't want those people in our ecosystem. Those people kill businesses. They don't outgrow them. Right? So I think it's so important, being uniquely and apologetically you. Market like that magnet. Attract the right people in, and then repel the wrong people away. And if you do that, and you do it consistently, and you do it for the right reasons for the right people, you cannot lose as a personal brand business owner. You just can't lose.
So fascinating. I think it might be interesting for everybody. I was just thinking, as you were saying that, trying to reflect on where do I buy a brand and where do I buy a personal brand? If you will. And I do think there are definitely some brands, I think of like fashion and footwear. Right? I grew up, I mean, I was like the Reebok pumps. I don't have a clue who the personal brand, well, actually it was, it was the superstars that they had using them. Right?
But I think in the case of almost every other, the categories that small businesses tend to be in, I think it's almost a hundred percent of the time, the case that I am buying a brand. And if somebody has done a really good job of sort of to your point Crystal, they don't want to be the face of the company so they've made a system and a brand that can exist without them. I still, at the end of the day, what I really want is the purest form of the original person who created that anyway. Right? As the consumer. So I guess that's a fascinating point. I love that we're just calling out for business owners, having this moment to stop and say, "Okay, am I really being intentional about the brand?" We want to actually have some conversations about what that means. How does a business owner start to take the first step?
I remember Chris, at your workshop, when you actually had us writing our personal brand statement, I actually wrote I'm unapologetically myself. When I was really going through some of the questions you were asking, I was like, what makes me different? And I think sometimes I say things people can't believe I say. To be honest, for me, it wasn't even a thought. I had just said it because that's what I was thinking. But I think that's one of the things that is about my personal brand, is that I'm just unapologetically myself. It's never in meanness or with the intent of hurting anything. But I just ask what's exactly on my mind. So I thought maybe because one of the things I'm always talking about with Scott is increasing his personal brand. I would like to maybe workshop this out, because Scott's a pro and he is definitely very solid in who he is and what he's doing. So I thought maybe we could do a workshop to help other small businesses see how they can get started with personal branding. Are you game?
I'm game. Let's do it.
So let's do-
I'm good for this stuff. Are you serious? Of course I'm game. This is good.
So we'll roleplay... Crystal's always looking out for me, and apparently she thinks I have no personal brand.
No, I think you have a great one that I want to monetize. That's Chris' saying. I want to monetize it for all of the key things we can do.
That's fantastic, Crystal. I love you. So Chris, take us-
I love how he has no problems with wanting to make money. I love this. [crosstalk 00:18:18]
Sold. Sold. [inaudible 00:18:22] entrepreneur, I come to you, Chris, and I say, "Hey, I just woke up. I realized that for all this time, I thought brands are for big businesses..." I rolled my eyes, but I'm ready. My heart has changed. Guide me.
So look. At the core of what we do as Youpreneurs, as personal brand business entrepreneurs and business owners, we have to define very clearly who we are and what we want to be known for. And that really does, honestly, at the end of the day, come down to what you're good at and how you can serve the people that you ultimately want to be calling customers at some point in the near future.
So the personal brand statement, exercise that I have everybody go through is featured or around the benefits of working with you and then the outcome of working with you. So, for example, for myself, people would say, "Well, what's your personal brand say?" And I say, "Well, I help people become the go-to leader in the industry and build a future-proof business." So the benefit of that statement is, "I will help you become the go-to leader in your industry." The outcome to that statement is, and build a future-proof business, right?
So what you need to be looking at when I asked you what your personal brand is, or what your personal statement is: what is the benefits of working with you as a personal brand entrepreneur? And for then when I'm done working with you, what am I going to be left with? That's the outcome. So what would you say at this early point is your personal brand statement?
Well, so I have a question which is, so I have a company that is already established. We're a hundred million dollar business. So I'm thinking we do have a company brand, right? Around our software, but you're talking about my personal brand, right?
Yeah. [inaudible 00:20:13].
You mean separate myself-
Well, you don't necessarily need to do that, because I think one of the strengths that you own as a business owner is the fact that you've obviously built this very successful business. So that is something you definitely want to lean into. It doesn't necessarily have to tie in specifically to what you do at the business or even what the business does, but it could possibly tie into, obviously software in some way, shape or form, or some sort of a service-based business or whatever is. So it really depends on what you want to do. See the beautiful thing here, Scott, above and beyond everything else, is you get to choose what you want to be known for. It doesn't necessarily have to come down to anyone else right now. It's all about you. Quite actually, be selfish. I give you the permission slip to be as selfish as you want right now.
Now that doesn't mean that this is going to be the case forever. Just as you've been able to build a very successful business, obviously with Keap, at the end of the day, it's very important for you to know. If you look back through all the big pivot points of building that business, you'll know that there have been many, many times where you said, "That's not what our customers would want. Our customers would want this. They've told us that they need this feature or this solution." Whatever it is.
So you've got to lean into, obviously at some point in the future, what your personal brand customers or audience members or community members would be wanting. But right now you can be selfish. Right now you can say, what do I think they need from me? Further down the line, the question will be, "What do I know they want from me?" And there's the power right there. Knowledge is power. That's what I'm saying, right?
Got it. Well, so for me in this workshop that I'm going through, I think for me, the sweet spot between what I feel like I'm good at and what I think will deliver value to people is helping businesses who are really just trying to feverishly put on different hats to accomplish different results they need to in their business. Helping them to see and understand their business and the way their business can be successful in ways that they hadn't before, and then helping them to systematically improve the likelihood of their success.
I think my nemesis in life is the failure rate of small businesses. And the fact that so many entrepreneurs try to start a company. They go in, they get the million voices telling them what they should be doing. It's all chaos. And while some fight through the odds and they succeed far, far more don't. For me, it's about systems and thinking through your business in a way that will let you lead to success. We've built software to help with the marketing and sales portion of that, but I do have a passion around all aspects of business. I think the process of illuminating for people a way to think about it, and then giving them systems of processes to help improve. That's kind of the core of what it is that I'm trying to do.
So I get it. Okay. I get it. Obviously we want to shrink that down.
You're supposed to make-
I know. I agree with that. [crosstalk 00:23:26] A personal brand statement is not something that's finite as well. This is something that's about as variable as you can make it, right? You can change your mind on this whenever you want. I have updated my Twitter profile and my Instagram profile more times than I have had hot dinners. Literally. Right?
You can play around with this as much as you possibly want. It's always going to be roughly the same, but you can play around with wording and see what works and what doesn't work. I remember when we were coming up with the subtitle for Rise of the Youpreneur, which is my book, we actually ran about a thousand dollars worth of Facebook ads to see which subtitle was going to get the most click-throughs. And then obviously we would be left hopefully with a very clear winner, and we did get exactly that result. We were left with a very clear winner of about 60% click-throughs from about four or five different subtitles trimmed down to one subtitle, which is on the front cover of the book. So you can do likewise and kind of tweak and change things as well. I would say at this point, at the very, very simplest of core messages, my name is Scott. I help businesses to get the clarity they need to build the systems they need to grow smarter, savvier businesses. Something to that effect. You how short and direct that is?
Great. So listeners, I think you're picking up what Chris is putting down, but just to recap: step one, get clear on the benefits that you're providing. Step two, put that into a punchy, concise statement. And then three, I think we need to get to outcomes. I think for me, this is about... Jay Mack on our webinars has been saying this and it really resonates for me, but this is about the outcome is that I end up... I don't wake up one day and realize that I have a business that I don't want, but I wake up and realize I have the business I've always wanted to create, not just the one that I ended up having.
For business owners, this is about creating a business that allows them to have the life that they want versus the other way around. So there's a concise version of that statement, but from an outcome standpoint, that's what it is. Because for business owners, the reality is the line between business and personal is very thin and sometimes non-existent, right? And so it's about being able to create a business that actually works for me and works for my life. In the punchiest form, I think we'd say so that you can have a business and a life.
Those two words are huge. They're absolutely huge. And Crystal, you will remember we had a little bit of a fun breakout session in the middle of my workshop there, which is only 90 minutes long. I mean, I could have gone for five hours, but it was 90 minutes. You'll remember that we had a little bit of fun over the two words, So that," do you recall this? So that, so that, so that. You have to keep asking yourself these questions. I do this, this, and this and this so that I can blah, blah, blah. So that our customers can blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that they can live a more fulfilling, healthy lifestyle or whatever.
I will say a couple of the people that were brave enough to share their personal branding statement, they got caught up in some of those "so that"s. You frankly told them, "You still have some work because you have to drill down deeper to understand your why." I think that was such a good, really call out. And I was so glad you were honest with them as well, because the ones that couldn't quite get through the "so that"s, it seemed really the only "so that" they had, as they were trying to line their pockets. That's not going to last as long as truly understanding who you're serving and what you're trying to do, and why this business over something else. If you can get to the, "Why am I doing this in particular?" I think you have a future, as you say, of being able to carry that wherever you go. So that, I think that workshop was so great because it just really dug down deep.
It had me doing the same thing from my chair, really digging into, what am I trying to say? And realizing, I still have a lot of work left to figure out, what do I want to do with this brand that I'm creating? You know, what do I want out of that? And I think that's so important. And Scott, to your point earlier, I absolutely love your personal brand, which is why as a social media marketing manager and a PR lady, it's like, I would like to use the heck out of it. So that's the only reason I always push you to get even further out from... Because anywhere you go, you shine. People know how authentic you are. They know that you're all about the customer that you're trying to help. What social media marketing manager wouldn't want to use that? I want to use that as many places that I can.
So that what, Crystal?
What was that?
Dang. Oh, he went in there. I love this. This is fantastic. My work here is done. I'm out.
That's a great formula. I get clear on the benefits. And then I go through as many "so that" statements as I can to get to my outcome. And I boil that down. I test it to make sure that it, number one, resonates with me, resonates with my audience.
What happens then, on a very serious note is, you can ask yourself that two-worded question is the further you go down that rabbit hole, is the closer you get to the mission of your business. That's my take on it. Right?
In today's world, you're going to be much better off long-terms of business if you have a mission over money mindset. Much, much better off if you have that mission over money mindset. It might mean that you might make a little less upfront, but if you can be consistent and show up over and over and over again for your audience, your customers. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind with that mindset, that you will make a lot more money further down the line for yourself, for your family, and your other loved ones. So genuinely ask yourself that two-worded question on a very regular basis. It will very rarely steer you in the wrong direction.
I think that the personal brand, also, when you look at companies that adapt and entrepreneurs that adapt quickly, small business owners that adapt quickly to things like what we're going through this crazy world right now, the ones that adapt quicker are the ones that stand firm in who they are. You can see it in everything. The reason they can adapt so quickly is because they already know down to the very core what they're trying to do. And all they need to do is find a new way to do it. If you don't know what you're trying to do, I think it takes you very long time to adapt because you're trying to figure out even, "Okay, well, how am I going to keep making money? What am I going to do differently?" And Scott, you and Clate are always talking about adapting. I think having that strong personal brand just allows you to adapt even quicker.
Well, I was just going to say that... I think it was back in 2000. Sheesh, I don't know, four or five somewhere in that range. Maybe six. When Clate and I had our version of, of going from money-driven to mission over money. And I'm really glad you brought that up, Chris, because the way that Michael Gerber explained it to us at the time resonated really deeply with me. He said, "Most businesses don't fail because their dream is too big, but it's because their dream is too small. Their mission is too small. There's not enough there to pull them through." So we've always talked about that in the context of a company's mission. I do agree with what you're saying, that you're driving on that "So what?" We'll help you build with your personal mission on the business side of things.
I love this concept that as I get more intentional about my personal brand, as I consistently drive myself down to the "So what?" Something inside of me changes. Now I can draw from a place of confidence and motivation that is about the outcome that I'm trying to create in the world, right? Not just the fact that I know I probably need to make money along the way in order to make this thing work, but I'm drawing from a well that's much deeper. As I've seen thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of businesses, there's a common denominator. That there's meaning underneath the business that it's really important to tap into. Well, Chris, this has been super fun. Appreciate you playing with us today. I hope everybody listening is really assessing for themselves how intentional I've been.
It might be a good litmus test. Have you done the work to write these things down? I think Chris gave us a really simple formula, which as you all know now with my personal brand, I appreciate formulas that can be easily understood and implemented. I know there's a lot more, so Chris, maybe just let our listeners know if they've- if you've struck a chord with them today. And they want to get in the hot seat and work on their own personal brand, how do they get ahold of you?
Easiest way to converse with me online nowadays is via Instagram. I'm very active on Instagram. Without a doubt, it's where the majority of the engagement is for us. So it's @chrisducker on Instagram-
Will your wife [inaudible 00:32:48] to them, or is that actually you?
It's all me. I guarantee it. It's actually the only platform that is all me. Pretty much everything else that we do social-wise is run by the team. I will, from time to time, obviously pop on and answer questions on Facebook or Twitter or whatever as well. But I'd say 90% of what we do across the other platforms actually run by the team, because a lot of other businesses, we get the same sort of questions that come to us over and over again. We've got hundreds of blog posts and podcasts and videos that we can point people to. There's the membership. We want to take things a little further. So it's a little easier nowadays to manage things in terms of our online brand as a business than it was say, three years, five years, seven years ago. I'm also very open with the way that I do get my team to run a lot of the side of the business.
The fact is, and closing here, you really do want to focus on building a business, maybe based around you. Yes, but not reliant on you. If you do that, you're setting yourself up for burnout. Being there 11 years ago, not going there again. So yes, by all means. Build a business that's based on you, but not relying on you.
So without a doubt, @chrisducker on Instagram, or they can head over to youpreneur.com if they want to dive a little quicker.
And that's Chris Ducker with a D, D U C K E R.
That is it. Not to be mistaken with Chris Tucker, the comedian who stars with Jackie Chan every time he needs another 30 million, you know?
Although I do really love the Rush Hours. [crosstalk 00:34:28].
Oh, they're great movies. They're great movies.
Well, thank you so much, Chris and Scott. Thank you for giving so much of yourself on air here for us to help other small business owners and entrepreneurs. So thank you both of you. And I guess we'll call that a wrap for this Small Biz Buzz.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
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Speaker 5 (35:08):
Hey everyone. Today's show is brought to you by Beauty and the Boss by Maisha Hagan, the source for professional development for your inner boss lady. Maisha Hagan offers virtual one-on-one coaching, training, and workshop experience gained as a multimillion dollar director and executive. And we're not being paid to say this. We just believe in what Maisha and Beauty and the Boss can do for you. Take your growth to the next level with Beauty and the Boss at bosslady.com. That's bosslady.com.