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Conquer the Chaos: How To Escape the Grind While You Grow With Layne Gneiting

What does riding a bike across America have to do with scaling a business?

Surprisingly, everything!

That’s what Layne Gneiting found when he stepped away from a successful career to fulfill a dream and go on a bike ride across the country. The experience changed his life and revealed valuable principles about what it takes to grow a business without falling victim to hustle culture.

His bike ride was so impactful that he now trains and leads people on biking adventures while helping them become world-class leaders, build booming businesses, and increase their income.

Check out this episode of the Conquer the Chaos Podcast for an exclusive peek into what Layne shares with his clients, including some tips that will surprise you.

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

[00:00:23] Clate Mask: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Conquer the Chaos Podcast. I'm Clate Mask, co-founder and CEO of Keap and your host of the Conquer the Chaos Podcast. And today we are going to talk about leadership. We're going to talk about rhythm. We're going to talk about two keys of success for entrepreneurs with a guest of mine that I'm really excited to introduce you to because Layne Gneiting is with us today.

[00:00:50] Clate Mask: Layne, thank you for being with us. I'm going to give an intro in just a second, but I really appreciate you being here.

[00:00:55] Layne Gneiting: I'm excited to be here with you, Clate. This is awesome.

[00:00:59] Clate Mask: It is awesome. It's going to be a lot of fun. Layne is someone that I've known for, gosh, over a decade now. He's worked with many of our leaders here at Keap over the years.

[00:01:11] Clate Mask: He's a leadership expert, a leadership guru, I would say. And he's seen leadership from many different perspectives. And when I think about leadership as a key to success for entrepreneurs, as I cover in Conquer the Chaos, there are so many different aspects of leadership. There are so many different dimensions.

[00:01:29] Clate Mask: And then when you introduce the size of the business, if you're a solopreneur, five person, 10 person, 25, 50, 100 people, the leadership role changes pretty significantly, but there are certain things that apply in leadership to everybody. And we're going to talk about some of those things today.

[00:01:48] Clate Mask: We're also going to talk a little bit about rhythm and about a principle that Layne talks about called flow. And we're going to talk about that because this is something … Layne, I don't know if you know this, but many years ago when you were working with Hal Halladay, some of our listeners know how he was our Chief People Officer and he would talk a lot about flow.

[00:02:12] Clate Mask: And so we're going to talk about that. I want to give you a chance to share your wisdom and your experience and what you've observed in entrepreneurs and what we do and don't do to take advantage of that state of flow and how we can benefit from that. So, without further ado, let me introduce Layne Gneiting.

[00:02:31] Clate Mask: Layne is a leadership expert. He is someone who has a pretty interesting take on leadership. And one of the things that Layne does for leadership characteristics and capabilities is he leads people on cycling trips and helps them to discover principles of leadership through those trips. Some of our people have been on those trips.

[00:02:57] Clate Mask: I've never had the privilege of going on one of those trips, but I've heard all about it from many of our people. And so I'm looking forward to talking about some of those principles, Layne, that you've Why don't you take just a second and tell our listeners a little bit more about who you are and what you do, and then let's get into some of the principles of leadership that we want to cover today.

[00:03:17] Layne Gneiting: Sure, absolutely. Thanks, Clate. And I gotta tell you, it's just fantastic to be with you. My name is Layne Gneiting. I have a doctorate in communication and taught leadership and communication at Arizona State University. And I did that for about 20 years, but I felt a deeper call. And that was to adventure.

[00:03:42] Layne Gneiting: And I took a big risk. Like it seemed impossible. Absolutely impossible. I was married, seven kids, job, mortgage, student debt, you know, all the stuff. Coming from academia as well.

[00:04:00] Clate Mask: This is like a pretty big shift that you made.

[00:04:02] Layne Gneiting: There's a massive shift, but what I wanted to do more than anything on the planet, like more than breath is I wanted to bike across America.

[00:04:14] Layne Gneiting: And when I did that, it blew my mind into a whole new stratosphere of what's possible. And it helped me realize more about myself, about other people, about, and about teamwork. And really, it allowed me to feel the heartbeat of a country. And I thought, “I want people to experience this because it awakens them to possibilities that I didn't even entertain.”

[00:04:47] Clate Mask: So let me just get this straight. You've been a professor for 20 years at Arizona State. You got seven kids. You tell your wife, “Adventure’s calling, hun, I want to go ride across the country on my bike.” What did she say?

[00:05:02] Layne Gneiting: She said, “Well, let's figure it out.” That's pretty amazing. And one of the key principles we'll talk about in a minute is I had … I was sitting around with good friends, Clate, good friends.

[00:05:13] Layne Gneiting: And, and this was back … This was like the early 2000s, mid 2006 or so. And I finally voiced this dream to friends. And one of them said, “Layne, that's despicable, and I can't believe you would do that. That if you would abandon your family and go on a pleasure jaunt like this, you are not a man in my book.”

[00:05:40] Clate Mask: Wow

[00:05:41] Layne Gneiting: And I wanted to be a man. I wanted to believe her story. And so I shelved the dream and quit doing it. And then three years later, some things happened and Gaylene and I said, “We’ve got to make it happen. How are we going to do it? Let's take the family, load them up in an old motorhome, and hit the road.”

[00:06:05] Clate Mask: Wow. So, you go on this cross-country trek, your family's in a motorhome, and you're riding a bike? Is that right? That’s amazing. So, what did you learn? What did you … You said it woke you up, you saw the country, but what was it that … And then you said you wanted people to have this awakening as well. What was it? What occurred for you during that trip?

[00:06:34] Layne Gneiting: Well, there were two things. There was internal and external. Internally, I realized I was an angry, entitled jackass. And I had no idea. I could not see it. To me, everybody else that got in my way, they were the jerks. And that just slipped away.

[00:07:00] Layne Gneiting: So it helped me realize I don't have to be angry. I don't have to try to force things I can allow — and that's a key term — I can allow them instead of constantly pushing for them.

[00:07:17] Clate Mask: Okay. So let's get to this point of allowing, I think we're starting to get to this flow concept. I want to take a second because, in entrepreneurship, there's a really tricky art because we are creating something.

[00:07:39] Clate Mask: We're making something happen that isn't going to happen without us imposing our will to a certain extent. There's a certain … I was talking to an entrepreneur the other day and he said, “Hey, you gave me some advice at one point when we were really struggling to get the business going.”

[00:07:58] Clate Mask: And I said, “Hey, you're going to need to will it into existence.” And I believe there's a certain creation that we have to do in our mind. And then we go to work to make that happen. When, as entrepreneurs, all the forces are telling us that can't be, it's not true. Why are you trying that? Don't do that.

[00:08:18] Clate Mask: And so there's a certain amount of willpower that it's required in entrepreneurship. But the art is if we're not careful, that willpower is very easily blurred into force. It's very easily blurred into anger, into displeasure with all of the forces of the economy that might be at odds with what you're trying to do.

[00:08:49] Clate Mask: And so what I'm trying to get at is, I believe for entrepreneurs, there is a creative power that does require will and does require imposing that will, but there's also a working with what is that sometimes can come in at odds with this will and trying to make things happen. And I think you're on it when you're talking about a little bit of anger and a little bit of people being in our way instead of being part of the way.

[00:09:24] Clate Mask: And I'm just wondering what do you see in what you learned as a leader on a bike or going across America that woke you up that would help in this delicate art, this dance that we do as entrepreneurs, as we try to create the business of our dreams?

[00:09:45] Layne Gneiting: Is it okay if I answer with an analogy?

[00:09:48] Clate Mask: Please.

[00:09:49] Layne Gneiting: Okay. And this is just such a fantastic analogy. I wish I could claim it, but centuries ago, it said there's a time and a season for all things. And if you think about the farmers … Now I grew up in an Idaho farming community, and so I observed the rotation of the seasons and the cycle of the actions that occurred.

[00:10:22] Layne Gneiting: And there was something pretty profound that was revealed to me. And that is that none of us … I don't care who you are, you could be president of the world, and you cannot force any plant to grow. You can't. Instead, what you can do is create the conditions for that plant to grow. Now, I think about the seed as a dream. And if you drop a dream onto hard ground, it might grow some roots, but it's not going to flourish.

[00:11:00] Layne Gneiting: Your job is to select the right dream and then you've got to disrupt your world. That's what they do when the farmer comes in with the plow. They completely churn up the ground until like two feet is upended. And if you don't do that, you're not able to fully allow that dream or that seed to thrive. And I think too many of us, we stay the course and we don't allow ourselves to disrupt our identities.

[00:11:37] Clate Mask: So what you're saying is, an entrepreneur who's got a dream has got to create the conditions for that dream or that seed to grow and flourish. They can't make it happen. They can't water that seed or protect that seed. They can't make it grow. And that's a really interesting thing that we create the conditions for it, for this business to grow. But there's a certain amount of allowing that needs to occur. And that allowing is something that sometimes goes counter to the nature of entrepreneurship, the nature of human beings, where we're trying to make something happen, especially, the ambitious type, driven individuals who want to make things happen.

[00:12:30] Clate Mask: And I say all the time, make it a great day, make things happen. But there's making in terms of creating conditions, and then there's a certain allowing. Talk to us about the allowing. What did you learn? In your cycling across the country, where does the creating the conditions and the allowing for the flourishing to occur? Where does that start?

[00:12:55] Layne Gneiting: Well, there's a certain energy that we all have and, and they're oftentimes, and you may have felt this Clate, but especially in the early days of Keap when you were like, “We’ve got to create this, we've got mortgages.” I love the whack-a-mole analogy. It’s like we’re paying his mortgage and then hers and his and then mine.

[00:13:17] Layne Gneiting: And there's a certain energy that we have when we're driven that pushes things away. That could totally come into our circle and aid us and assist us, but we're so funneled and so driven that we shove it out. And I can tell you one really interesting scenario. I was cycling across North Dakota and I was thinking, “I've got to make this happen. I've got to do it. If I don't do it, it doesn't happen.” We went to church and we met a guy who got really excited. He said, “You're biking across America. I'm going to take you out to eat. You're going to come to my home. I got a gift for you. And went out to eat, went to his home. And he handed me his life story.”

[00:14:19] Layne Gneiting: And he said, “I got really excited about cycling. I got totally impassioned. Most of this, you're not even going to care about, but at the end, it's chronicles of my coast-to-coast journey on a bike.” And you'll like that. And as I read through, this old guy, he was doing 120 miles a day.

[00:14:49] Layne Gneiting: I was doing 60 and I thought, what the heck? I have put limits on my mind. What? I wonder if I could crank that out. Well, a storm blew in at the end of the day, but I cranked out 112 miles that day.

[00:15:10] Clate Mask: Wow.

[00:15:12] Layne Gneiting: And it would never have happened had he not come into my universe and shared with me this connection about something we both had passion about. And if I would have been closed to that, then it never would have happened. But I had to be open and allow the opportunity when somebody reaches out and says, “Hey, let me give you a gift…”

[00:15:41] Clate Mask: Yeah.

[00:15:42] Layne Gneiting: It was up to me to allow myself to receive that gift. Otherwise, it was just a book that you stick in the corner and let gather dust.

[00:15:54] Clate Mask: Yeah. Okay. So I'm thinking about our audiences building businesses as entrepreneurs, having a dream, creating the conditions for that to be successful. They're working hard at that. I mean, they're metaphorically plowing that ground and letting go of things from the past and really leaning into their dreams and working hard at it.

[00:16:20] Clate Mask: And then there's this allowing aspect that you're calling out. And my observation is that the allowing has a lot to do with people and our relationships with people. And what you're calling out is this interaction with this individual. And in this way, you slowed down to hear his story, read his story, and it opened you up to a different level of productivity, a different level of achievement with 112 miles in a day instead of 60.

[00:16:58] Clate Mask: So what would you say to entrepreneurs who are maybe in that place where they are at odds with people as they're trying to grow their business instead of allowing people to bless their business and be a part of things? I see this a lot of times in the mindset of business owners who see employees as a necessary evil, quote-unquote. They wish they didn't have to have any employees.

[00:17:27] Clate Mask: And I think, “Well, that's going to be really hard to create something amazing with those people that you see as an obstacle or an impediment to what you're trying to accomplish.” How else do you see it? That's one example, but how else would you maybe loosen up our listeners' minds as to how they can allow the creation and the building of their business through people?

[00:17:50] Layne Gneiting: Absolutely. And I think it goes back to creating the conditions. There is a quote that my gosh, I think every business ought to have it emblazoned on their front door. It’s by the author Antoine de Saint Exupéry. He said — let's see if I can get it now.— “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and labor. But rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.”

[00:18:29] Layne Gneiting: Now I realize that's one of your principles, one of your keys, which is vision. When you have vision and you share the vision and allow their visions to also play into that vision, you unlock something within everybody. Daniel Pink called it autonomy, mastery and purpose.

[00:18:53] Layne Gneiting: They want the freedom to master something. And everyone needs an avenue whereby they can master that and if your business is that avenue and you let them go, they will give you more than 100% because now you've given them license, you've given them permission to tackle that with all they've got and to unleash their higher — I don't want to say higher self — but like their peak performer.

[00:19:30] Clate Mask: Yeah. When we talk about leadership, it starts with vision because that's what enrolls people to come be a part of something bigger and for their purpose to become a part of this bigger purpose.

[00:19:48] Clate Mask: And. I love the principles that Daniel Pink calls out. And I've always … About 12, 15 years ago, we had a problem in our business that was really frustrating me and the senior leaders of the company, and we had a really driven, awesome young employee, and I was having a conversation and he got excited about this particular problem.

[00:20:18] Clate Mask: And I remember saying to him — this phrase came out of me while we were having this conversation. It wasn't planned. It just kind of happened as we were having the conversation, but I could see this real problem that we had and this passion that he had. And I said, “You know what? I want you to make it your mission to solve this problem for the company.” And he got all excited he was at this place where he wanted a mission. He wanted to go master … You know mastery is a really powerful driver for people as Daniel Pink called out, and in that conversation, he got lit up and ignited and I will never forget how inspiring it was to others around him and myself when he went and solved a problem because he made it his mission to do that.

[00:21:09] Clate Mask: He wanted to go master this problem. And I've seen that over and over over the years. When people make it their mission to do something. And it's their mission. It's not my mission. I actually didn't send him on my mission. We together could see a problem. And we matched up a passion with a problem and someone who was driven and excited and wanted to make a contribution. And then I invited him into that and boy, he went and made it his mission to solve that problem. And I've seen that happen dozens of times over the years in our business and in other people's businesses.

[00:21:49] Clate Mask: And it requires a certain meeting of the hearts and minds of leaders and the people who are making it happen. And it's what you called out. It's vision combined with a challenge to go master something that brings people's best selves to the table and brings their best workout and it becomes inspiring to everybody.

[00:22:12] Clate Mask: And then other people see that and they want to go do something and make it their mission. And so that phrase I found is a really … I stumbled upon it many years ago, make it your mission to do this. And you can't. I've tried, by the way. I've tried it sometimes when the right combination of factors are not in play where you have the real purpose and passion for the individual, you've got a real problem that you're going after. And there's a person who is empowered to go do it. You have to have those characteristics before they can take it on as their mission. But boy, when they do, it is so fun and so inspiring. And it's one of the things to this day that gets me excited about doing what we do when I see our people go solve a problem like that.

[00:22:58] Layne Gneiting: That is a fantastic story. I love that, and it plays back into when you create the conditions for it. You have a problem. You have somebody who's passionate and you gave them permission to make it theirs.

[00:23:18] Clate Mask: Yeah. It's a great way to …

[00:23:19] Layne Gneiting: I say so often that that people are wanting, they're begging for permission to go tackle something, but it's not their job description or it's not their role. And so they shy back because they don't believe they have permission to go after it.

[00:23:39] Clate Mask: Okay, we're going to keep this going, but first a quick message for you, Conquer the Chaos listeners. Let me talk to you straight for just a minute. You're running your business and it dominates your mind. It can be very difficult to take a step back and see what's needed to create balance in your business and your personal life and to create great growth and development and progress in your business and personal life.

[00:24:01] Clate Mask: One of the most powerful ways to gain the perspective that you need is to get away from things. And immerse yourself in an environment where you're going to be inspired, where you can see possibilities, where you can create connections and where you can learn and grow and develop. And I know of no better place for entrepreneurs than Keap’s Let's Grow Summit. For years. We ran this conference as just an amazing mecca for entrepreneurship. And then, truth be told, for a few years, we didn't run it. We got back to it last year, and this year, we're putting it on and it is going to be awesome. I am so excited about this. And I want you as our listeners to not miss out on this event. It's going to be November 20-22 in downtown Phoenix with the main days being the 21 and the 22. You can register for it by going to keap.com/lets-grow-summit. That's keap.com/lets-grow-summit. And you can take advantage of our early bird registration pricing, which expires at the end of July. So if you are needing a reflection time, an opportunity to take a step back, gain greater perspective, inspiration, and most of all, see what automation — the fifth key to success — can do for your business, then make sure that you attend the Let's Grow Summit. Keap.com/lets-grow-summit, November 20-22 in Phoenix. I look forward to seeing you there. Alright, now back to our chat.

[00:25:24] Clate Mask: So, what can we do as leaders to give people permission? Maybe it's to give ourselves permission at times, and then other people's permission. Because I think you're right. I think we do get into ruts. We get into certain routines. There's a reason why. To me, rhythm is not rut.

[00:25:44] Clate Mask: There's a different flow to it. There's a magic to it. It's almost musical. That's why I love the term rhythm. How do we give ourselves permission? How do we give others permission and make sure that we're not holding ourselves back that way?

[00:26:01] Layne Gneiting: There are a couple of things that I can think of, Clate. One fascinating thing about rhythm is that you've got to have silence within the rhythm. Silence is … And you'll hear master musicians talk about how a pause or a break is as important as the note. So, when we give ourselves permission to have breaks to not be gunning it all the time but to have that downtime to just ponder, to just read, to reflect on where we're going instead of feeling like it's crunch time. There's a fire. I’ve got to put it out. That breath is as important as the action.

[00:26:51] Clate Mask: Yeah.

[00:26:53] Layne Gneiting: And in this action, it's a different type of action.

[00:26:56] Clate Mask: Yeah, let me say something about that before you go to the second thing.

[00:26:58] Clate Mask: If I could go tell my younger self one thing about my style of work what I would tell my younger self is to find silence because it's easy to say slow down. I heard slow down, slow down, slow down, slow down. And I couldn't. I couldn't even interpret what that foreign language meant, but when I learned silence, when I learned quiet and I began to actually relish quiet, then I slowed down and I created space that then produced … My coach has this phrase, “Miracles happen in space.”

[00:27:57] Clate Mask: And great breakthroughs happen in space. They require silence. They require quiet. And my younger self didn't understand what that asset was. It was something that had to be filled. And I still fall into that rut at times where I'm filling the quiet. But I've come to appreciate that and I like the way you're describing rhythm and the silence within that rhythm. And certainly my morning mastery work that I do and that I talk about … The key principle that we're seeking in that morning mastery is silence and quiet before the rush of the day before the noise of everything else before everything else starts, finding quiet. And to me, one of the most powerful tools in a leader's toolkit is knowing how to fashion miracles with silence. And so I appreciate that you called that out. Thank you. You're going to say a second thing.

[00:29:04] Layne Gneiting: Well, let me piggyback on that if I could. I love that phrase, find silence. That's another one that we ought to have written on our hearts. Yeah. That's when the energies that we've been unknowingly pushing away can finally come in. The way I think of it, it's like you've looked outside on a cloudy day when light has pierced through the clouds and you see these shafts of light hitting earth. Too many of us are in a frenzy that our brains are constantly in that driven mode that it's like the storm clouds. And when we find silence, that's when the energies — you could call it enlightenment, whatever — finally pierce through the storm that we've created and give us the very answers we need.

[00:30:01] Clate Mask: Yep. I love that. And I remember, I want to say something to our audience that is so driven. They're making things happen as entrepreneurs.

[00:30:14] Clate Mask: Their minds are racing. A hundred miles an hour. I know that. I understand. Myself today can speak to that individual in a way that I couldn't hear it back then, and I'll tell you why I couldn't hear it back then. And I'm saying this because I think some of our listeners are not able to hear what I'm saying and what you're saying. Our minds are going so fast. There's so much to do.

[00:30:42] Clate Mask: We've become so accustomed to not enough hours in the day. The chaos is that it's become a way of being for us, and we don't know how to identify with this other calm way of being. And in fact, that younger self of mine and some of whom are similar in our audience today, they actually are allergic to it.

[00:31:11] Clate Mask: They repel it. It's actually … It looks suspiciously like lack of production, lack of productivity and they tell themselves and I told myself, “I can't afford to do that. I don't have the time to, I can't do that.” And I'll tell you where I started to have the breakthrough, and it was about 10 or 12 years ago. I had just turned 40 and I'd set aside a day to go work on some long-term planning in our business.

[00:31:46] Clate Mask: And I booked a hotel room to do that so that I could just be in a different space to create differently. I had learned the magic by then of changing up the scenery, doing things differently. And I went and I played an early morning round of golf before going and checking into the hotel room to do this planning work.

[00:32:05] Clate Mask: I didn't have any tasks on my list. I didn't have any family responsibilities that day. Sharice knew that I was going to go do this work and I was in a state that I was completely unaccustomed to and I played the best round of golf. In my life to that point, I shot a 78. I had never been in even the low eighties at that point.

[00:32:28] Clate Mask: And I shot about five strokes better than I had ever shot before. And I was just on. I was hitting greens with my irons, for people who have played golf. I was hitting every green. It was amazing. I was just playing this incredible round of golf. And I was like floating by the time I got done with this round of golf.

[00:32:51] Clate Mask: I drove to check into this Courtyard Marriott, where I was doing my planning. I had this amazing day. I had all kinds of breakthroughs. I had this just incredible day. And then the next day or a couple days later, I was in a coaching session with my coach and I said, “Steve, I got to tell you what happened. This was amazing. I shot a set, a freaking 78. I have never shot better than an 83 and I shot a 78. Then I had this amazing planning day.” And he helped me see that I had created space that miracles happen in space and breakthroughs happen in space. My mind was able to think differently, see differently, and act differently.

[00:33:34] Clate Mask: I was able to swing the club differently. I was able to strike the ball differently. Everything was different. I had a looseness about me and I felt it while I was playing. I felt loose. Everything was just smooth and easy. The club was doing all the work. I told Steve, “I did my backswing and everything just happened effortlessly.”

[00:33:57] Clate Mask: Yeah. And he was like, “This is the state that you can get in and we want to tap into this state.” And that's when I started to learn the power of silence, the power of quiet, the power of getting rid of tasks and clearing out things so that I could produce in a different way, a different way than the checklists of things that I … By the way, I still do checklists. It’s not like I don't do that, but I found a different mode and what I hope that my younger self could have heard if I could hear and what I hope that our audience could hear is there is a type of productivity, the type a driven entrepreneur can get themselves into.

[00:34:42] Clate Mask: And by the way, this is why I advocate so much about vision and rhythm and getting into this place of rhythm because you can tap into this mode. I know you have a very deep connection with that. You call it flow. So, you talk to us a little bit about how we tap into that as a place of productivity and accomplishment, not as a place at odds with our day-to-day work.

[00:35:14] Layne Gneiting: Yeah, well, it's part of creating the conditions. I think that there are two things that we can do, like everybody should do. One is when they get up in the morning, go outside for exercise. Now, you can get great exercise in the gym and I'm not denigrating it, but there's a magic that happens when you're outside because you're allowing creation to now play a role in what you're doing, whether it's running, biking, walking, whatever.

[00:35:53] Layne Gneiting: The elements, they don't care if you're the janitor or the CEO. And learning to harmonize with that instead of fighting it, learning to be one with that is essential to flow. The second thing is I think you can call it meditation, prayer, Gospel study, but some sort of immersive experience where you shut everything off and you have nothing on. You put your phone and your watch in personal mode and nobody can reach you and allow yourself to truly safeguard that experience. Set a timer.

[00:36:49] Layne Gneiting: So you're not trying to just fill the space. But allowing yourself the freedom, giving yourself permission to simply ponder and immerse and really soak in whatever it is you're studying or meditating. And if I can, I'm going to give you a great story about this.

[00:37:11] Clate Mask: Please. Yeah. So, to recap, just as you go into the story, the point you're making about getting into flow, is we create the conditions for it. We can do that in nature. We can do that with some sort of spiritual immersion, but we're creating conditions that make it possible for us to get into this state of flow to do a different type of productivity, a different type of accomplishment, a different type of achievement than the checklist driven, or the ambitious entrepreneurial oriented, a way that’s kind of our default mode typical to entrepreneurs. So I appreciate how you talked about creating the conditions. I'm excited to hear the story

[00:37:55] Layne Gneiting: Well, it's like getting out of the way and allowing the golf club to get the 78 for you. You get to participate in the process, but now you're not the one doing it. It's like something else Is flowing through you and I'll just pause before the story. A great, fantastic book that taps into that is called “Zen in the Art of Archery.” It’s a thin little book of 83 pages. It’s phenomenal. Anyway, so I had a client who said, “Layne. I don't know that I can join you on this bike ride. I'm an entrepreneur. I am up at four. I'm on the road at five. I don't get home till seven. My life does not allow time for any bicycle training.” I said, “Man, let me tell you, this will reward you tenfold if you do it. Well, he said, “Okay, I'm going to do it.”

[00:39:01] Layne Gneiting: And then on one of our training rides together, we would go at like eight o'clock at night. He was telling me, “Layne, I really pride myself on having plan A, sub A and sub B and sub C and plan B as my backup and plan sub a and B and C and plan C.” He said, “When I make my business plans. I've got so much going on and I've got a stack of all the papers with all the plans, and I went to my assistant the other day and I had that full stack all printed out and everything. And I took the top plan A, and I gave her the rest and I just threw it on the floor. I said, ‘We're not going to go with any of that. We're just going to go with plan A.’ And she freaked out and said, ‘Boss, I know you. Let me at least archive this for us because you're going to want that.’ Nope. I know that we're going to be enough. All we need is plan A. We'll get through it. We'll pivot if we need to, but just plan A.’” So you heard her later on shredding the paper.

[00:40:30] Layne Gneiting: He went on the trek. We went to Croatia and Italy. He came back and then I called him a year later. And I said, “How are things going?” He said, “Layne, I’ve got to tell you, I'm still working like a mad dog because I work. That's what I do. I love it. But I've told my guys now. I trust you. I want you to go ahead and tackle things. Our business has tripled. It is insane how much work we've got. And they are confident and they are loving it because they feel empowered to solve all the problems instead of always coming back to me. I've let go. They have permission. It's go-time.”

[00:41:17] Clate Mask: That's awesome. That's amazing. That ability for entrepreneurs to let go, trust their people, create a plan together, but then enable people to do their best work driving on that plan.

[00:41:29] Clate Mask: When I look back over the years and I see times we've done well, that's what we're doing. And when I see times we haven't done so well, we're not doing that. So I appreciate that story. And I appreciate the points you're making about how to get into flow. And I hope that our listeners are wanting to embrace that way of working, not as the only way. There are times to grind. There are times to grind and there are times to flow. And I imagine when you're on the road, there are grinders. You're driving up a hill and you're just, you know, you're digging it.

[00:42:06] Clate Mask: And then there are times to just go with the flow and fly downhill and experience that joy and that rush. And so I appreciate you. Helping us see the two different modes and I think that if people are stuck in a grind, I hope that they want to embrace a different way. And you've given some great ways of how to create the circumstances to make that happen — getting into nature, waking up early, being in silence, embracing that, and trusting that miracles will happen in that space. And to be in that space and be comfortable with that space, instead of going and rushing to something else, which is the default way that we tend to do things … Well, this has been fantastic. Are there any other lessons of leadership that you want to leave with us before I give you a chance to tell people where they can learn more about what you do?

[00:43:08] Layne Gneiting: Yeah. The number one leadership lesson is listening. Where you listen from will determine everything. Because people want to share, they will divulge what's going on in their hearts and minds and in their work. If you listen, if you create space.

[00:43:29] Layne Gneiting: And just listen and that listening isn't just nodding your head while you're thinking about something else or thinking about how you're going to respond, it is listening like you do where you summarize, you echo back what people said in a way that they feel validated and know that you heard them.

[00:43:54] Layne Gneiting: Then the defenses that people have, the shields and armor, they melt away and you can really connect person to person rather than supervisor to employee.

[00:44:09] Clate Mask: Yeah.

[00:44:10] Layne Gneiting: You connect on a human level and that's where creation really can flourish.

[00:44:15] Clate Mask: I love that. And that's that connection with individuals, with people where magic happens in terms of results and productivity and growth of the individuals of the business.

[00:44:27] Clate Mask: I appreciate you sharing that. Where can people learn more about you, Layne? If they're interested in your leadership and some of the treks that you do, I know you do two or three pretty amazing treks per year, and you take people of all different sorts, types, and lifestyles on these trips. I've heard amazing things about them. Where can they learn more about you, Layne?

[00:44:47] Layne Gneiting: Great. Thanks for giving me the chance, Clate. First of all, let me make a distinction. It is definitely not a trip. It is a six-month program focused around a week and a half of some place amazing. But, they can go to wayofthehero.com and I've also created a coin. It'll be out by the time this podcast airs, but I've created a coin that connects with a really powerful story about giving permission so that if somebody wants that, they can get it for like nine bucks or something.

[00:45:30] Layne Gneiting: And they can get that coin, stick it in their pocket, get it for their teams to remind them that we have permission. We have permission. You have permission to master this. You have permission to tackle this problem and make it your mission.

[00:45:51] Clate Mask: Love it. So wayofthehero.com is where they can go to learn more about what you do in your leadership program that culminates in a week-and-a-half trip.

[00:46:04] Layne Gneiting: They can do that. The coin will be at permission.wayofthehero.com.

[00:46:11] Clate Mask: Okay. permission.wayofthehero.com. Well, excellent. Thank you for taking us through some of the lessons of leadership, getting into flow, and creating the conditions for that success.

[00:46:23] Clate Mask: And I know that you know this so well that entrepreneurship can be a grind and we can get into a rut. And sometimes when we get into that, it's preventing us from achieving great results and having a great impact on our employees and our customers and our families and communities. And so, for anybody listening, if you're finding yourself a little bit in a long-term grind, open yourself up to an additional way — not the other way, alternative way. It's just another way where you can think about different types of productivity. I know my younger self didn't want to embrace that thought because it didn't seem like it was going to be productive, but I now know it is very productive. In fact, it's the most fun kind of productivity and you need both. You need the grind and you need the flow, and I appreciate you helping people see how they can do that, whether that's getting into nature, creating silence, spiritual immersion, or getting out and doing something adventurous. These are all ways to ignite our spirit and get us into a place of creation.

[00:47:34] Clate Mask: And the last thought I'll leave with people is this: Sometimes people, we'll say, ”Leadership is lonely,” or they'll say “I motivate my people, but who motivates me? Who leads the leader?”. And I would just say it's in those moments of silence where you can lead yourself as the leader.

[00:47:53] Clate Mask: You can allow yourself to be led. It's a spiritual process. It's a connecting process. It's getting into a different place in your mind and your heart. I want that for our entrepreneurs who are listening to get into that place of leadership, especially if you find yourself in a place where you've been starved of it for a while. That morning mastery that I recommend is magic for getting into that place. And I appreciate you Layne and sharing some of your thoughts and ideas here. As you know, the dark side of entrepreneurship can be tough. And to conquer the chaos, it requires these six keys to success we've discussed — in particular, we've talked about rhythm, a little bit about vision, definitely about leadership. And until our next episode, I hope you all will take these thoughts, these ideas that Layne has shared, put them into practice and get out there and keep growing.

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